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AR-talk
Digest: 7 Jun 2004, Issue 1257 ------------------------------
Date:
Sat, 05 Jun 2004 22:54:33 -0700 What are some good books that document the beginnings of the Catholic Church versus the original Body of Christ?. Books that review the historical view of the beginnings of the church that veered from the apostolic church of Christ. Perhaps anything that may speak to the ongoing Body of Christ that came to be seen as heritical by the Catholic church.. Please
send to my personal address if you can: thanks ------------------------------ Date: Sat,
05 Jun 2004 17:13:22 -1000 6/5/04 7:54 PMcharis2@gloryroad.net > What
are some good books that document the beginnings of the I'd be interested in the same info. Been discussing it with some latter Day Saints that have been visiting me. TL ------------------------------ From: "Steve
Hogel" <shogel@midsouth.rr.com> Requests, such as the one below, do not need to have replies sent privately. Responses to these requests will benefit the list, are within the charter and I would encourage answers to be shared on Talk. Thanks Steve Hogel > 6/5/04
7:54 PMcharis2@gloryroad.net From: "Philip
Johnson" <philjohnson@optusnet.com.au> You might need to be somewhat more precise in your request for information. What precisely do you have in mind when referring to the Catholic Church --- what historical epoch of the Church of Rome do you have in mind, since the Church of Rome itself has had organic growth in its theology and doctrines over the centuries (e.g. are you supposing that today's expression of the Catholic Church is liturgically, ecclesiastically and doctrinally similar to the early centuries of the Church?): - * Is it the doctrinal position of the Church of Rome from the period of the Council of Trent to Vatican II? * Is it the pre-Tridentine Church of Rome of the Middle Ages and Renaissance? * Is it the early development of Bishoprics and the Conciliar Church of the first seven centuries? * Are you taking into consideration the differences that existed between the expression of Christianity centred in Rome and Carthage (Cyprian, Tertullian, Augustine) over against those of Antioch, Alexandria and Jerusalem (the Orthodox Eastern churches that appeal to , Basil, Cyril, Gregory Palamas, the Cappadocian fathers, etc)? On the
history of the early church you would do well to start with some general
treatments such as:- W. H. C. Frend, The Rise of Christianity (Fortress Press, 1984), which is a comprehensive study from the time prior to Christ up to Pope Gregory I. Walter Oetting, The Church of the Catacombs: The early church from the apostles to AD 250 (Concordia Publishing House, 1964). On the
development of doctrine into the early Catholic tradition start with: Bengt Hagglund, History of Theology (Concordia Publishing House, 1968). J. N. D. Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines (Revised edition. Harper & Row, 1978). Thomas O'Loughlin, Celtic Theology: Humanity, World and God in Early Irish Writings (Continuum, 2000). On early
heresies start with: On the
Orthodox Eastern tradition start with: Robert Brenton Betts, Christians in the Arab East (SPCK 1979). J. M. Hussey, The Orthodox Church in the Byzantine Empire (Clarendon Press 1986). A Roman
Catholic primer for Protestants is: A liberal
Lutheran study of the Church of Rome is: A recent
evangelical interpretation is: On early
church leaders: Felix V.
A. Boyse, "Cyprian, Lawyer and Bishop: A Study in Christian Leadership"
Simon Greenleaf Law Review, Vol. 6 (1986-87) pp. 7-30. From:
"Bill" <52789bc3@bellsouth.net> Does anyone know the origin and first author of the elements of saving faith (notitia, assensus, and fiducia)? My own research has been unable to find anyone who's ever found (or claimed) where our current descriptions and understanding of saving faith first started and developed. Some of the challenges I've run into when attempting to define faith include: 1. Faith as nonconceptual (faith is a "feeling") 2. Faith as implicit (it doesn't matter what you believe) 3. Faith
as sincerity (faith points you in the right direction, but -- Thanks -- Bill ------------------------------ From: "Robert
Bowman" <robertbowman@verizon.net> Bill, According to _The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge_, Melanchthon is the source of the threefold analysis of faith as _notitia_, _assensus_, and _fiducia_: http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/encyc/encyc04/htm/ii.vii.ii.htm It's a place to start. In Christ's
service, ------------------------------ From: "Philip
Johnson" <philjohnson@optusnet.com.au> To piggy-back on Rob Bowman's note about Melanchthon:- The use of these terms occurs in Melanchthon's work known as Loci Communes. The Loci Communes first appeared in 1521 and reflected the polemical engagement between apologists for the Church of Rome versus Luther. Melanchthon veered backwards and forwards on various theological topics and his work went through several different printed editions in his lifetime. English versions vary according to which edition-text has been selected for translation. One who studied under Melanchthon and knew his work intimately was Martin Chemnitz. Chemnitz was a prodigious writer with his massive work Examination of the Council of Trent (4 volumes in English translation), his sturdy The Two Natures of Christ, and several other works. There is an oft mentioned maxim that "If Martin [Chemnitz] had not come along, Martin [Luther] would hardly have survived." Chemnitz delivered lectures based on Melanchthon's work, which were published after Chemnitz's death by his sons and another colleague. The collection of lectures includes a meticulous exposition of the definition and nuances of faith, based around Melanchthon's own work. Chemnitz's book, which is available in translation is Loci Theologici (2 Vols. translated by J. A. O. Preus; St. Louis, Missouri: Concordia Publishing House, 1989). Volume 2 of the work contains Chemnitz's lectures on defining faith. Some discussion
on the nuances of the words in the light of what the early Lutheran
thinkers had to say can be found in the work of Francis Pieper, Christian
Dogmatics (Vol. 2. Concordia Publishing House 1951) pp. 428ff. Date:
Sun, 6 Jun 2004 01:28:24 -0500 (CDT) An increasing number of Neopagans and Wiccans see their new religious traditions as completely compatible with their Christian upbringing. The Cauldron
and The Cross: Honoring The Old Religion with The New --- Others believe that Yeshua was married to Mary of Bethany, the Magdalene, and honor this Bride of Christ as The Goddess of Christianity. (Some look to Mother Mary, Sophia, or Asherah as Christian Goddesses as well.) Still others believe that The Christ Presence is transcendent of all religions, as are Mother Mary, the Saints, and Angels. Whether
you are a Christo-Pagan, a Christian Witch, a Goddess-Seeking Christian,
or a Mage who calls upon Saints, Angels, and/or Christian Deities in
your mystical and magickal workings, we welcome you. A number
of links are given for: The Cauldron
and The Cross Award For Excellence - links a number of "Christian"
Wicca sites: About twenty websites are listed. The Cauldron
and The Cross: Recommended Reading A quite detailed Bibliography of sources detailing all the areas that a "Christian" Wiccan might need information for: - Christ
~ Jesus ~ Yeshua This includes quite a noxious mixture of Jesus Seminar, Gnostic scholarship, Neo-Gnostic spirituality, popular angelology, the Essene Jesus theory, feminist thealogies, liberal views on the canon, and alleged magic traditions within early Christianity. If anyone has any resources on any of these problems already prepared, please let me know as I would appreciate it! :) Web pages specifically and short articles are of interest. Philip - I'm still assimilating some of your earlier posts on these subjects ;) The only real response I've found to "Christian" Wicca by an Evangelical ministry is this very short page: "Christian
Wicca"? The Ultimate Oxymoron! Anyone have any other responses? Given the postmodern times we're in, this development isn't really that surprising. I'm collecting resources relevant to this on two pages, though I'm in the process of updating both: Evangelical
Resources on Mysticism and its Dangers Evangelical
Resources on Wicca and Neopaganism In particular, Roman Catholicism is seen as very compatible with Wiccan belief. Venerating Mary Mother of God on Sunday and worshipping the Goddess during the week is seen as a contiguous activity. I'm also in the process of updating my page of resources on Roman Catholicism before the next "Fullness of Truth" conference: Evangelical
Resources on Roman Catholicism On Mary, I'd recommend these two books: * Eric
Svendsen, Who is My Mother? * James
White, Mary - Another Redeemer? I doubt I'll have time soon, given my attention with the LC of late, but I'm hoping to start piecing something together on this once I'm further along with my study of esoteric spirituality; otherwise I'd just be wasting my time ;) --- ------------------------------ From: "Philip
Johnson" <philjohnson@optusnet.com.au> Michael The demographics for many of those who have turned toward neo-pagan and Wiccan spiritualities often includes people who have had a background in the Catholic Church, and to a lesser extent Protestant churches; and there is small cluster of those who have a Jewish background (hence the expression Jewitches sometimes crops up). Charlotte Allen wryly remarked on this: "Practicing Wicca is a way to have Christianity without, well, the burdens of Christianity" ("The Scholars and the Goddess" Atlantic Monthly, January 2001, p 22). Apart from the personal frameworks and experiences of those who have become disenchanted with their participation in the Catholic liturgy, the other key factor concerns the derivation of some Wiccan-Pagan rituals from Catholic liturgy. The coalescence of various elements that end up in Wiccan rituals includes: 1. Catholic
liturgy (bread and wine on the Wiccan altar). These and others are traced in Ronald Hutton's masterly book The Triumph of the Moon (Oxford Uni Press, 1999). Of more recent flavouring is the emergence of a new model for esoteric thought. The template leans toward concepts of hidden rituals and teachings passed down the centuries by magu-like characters/groups who "knew the score" with reference to Jesus. That is, Jesus taught gnosis rather than faith, and his inner retinue included Magdalene. This is then allied to ideas derived from James Frazer's Golden Bough that Christianity drew on the mystery religions for its rituals and many beliefs (like death and resurrection). The other ingredient is that the "holy grail" is not the chalice of the Last Supper but a symbol for the gnosis Jesus taught secretly and which concerns his relationship with Magdalene. Their children become a powerful bloodline that ends up in France with the Merovingians, and possibly the Royal House of the Stuarts in England. The Essenes are thrown in for good measure (but utterly divorced from the context of Qumran as a separatist sect) carrying forward Buddhist ideas or magical ideas depending on which pop book is relied on. The books that are scooped up to form this heady mixture include: Baigent, Leigh & Lincoln, The Holy Blood, and the Holy Grail (Jonathan Cape, 1982); Baigent, Leigh & Lincoln, The Messianic Legacy (Jonathan Cape, 1986); Baigent & Leigh, The Dead Sea Scrolls Deception (Jonathan Cape, 1991). Baigent & Leigh, The Elixir and The Stone: The Traditions of Magic and Alchemy (Viking 1997). Laurence Gardner, Bloodline of the Holy Grail: The Hidden Lineage of Jesus Revealed (Penguin, 2001). Morton
Smith, The Secret Gospel (Harper 1973). To this one can add Dan Brown's Da Vinci Code as a pop colaescence of holy grail ideas and suppressed gnosticism; or Freke & Gandy's The Jesus Mysteries where the gnostics were side by side the orthodox until Nicaea when the gnostics lost out. A question that could be reflected on as prompted by this phenomena concerns the emergence of folk religion in Christian civilisation. In short folk religion empowers lay people who otherwise feel disenfranchised by a hierarchical church that makes a clear divide between professional priest/clergy and the laity. The disempowered will look for ways of finding direct access to God without the interdiction of a perceived professional insider's club of ministers. Folk religion often grows up then when people feel marginalised. The growth of Wicca undoubtedly can be explained on many levels. One of them may very well be a response of women and men who want to connect with God in the creation (something we do find in Scripture with reference to God's Spirit being omnipresent), but the Church seems to have gone quiet on that topic, or tightens its grip on institutional power at the expense of encouraging giftedness in laity to serve. _______________________________________________________________ You have been reading the AR-talk digest <www.apologia.org> return
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